Help me understand gentlemen who like to be POZ

[captain]

I am a very active bottom who loves bareback just as much as the next.  I draw the line at taking a poz gentleman I don't understand how a person would accept a poz load in his ass or swallow a poz load. I remain clean and get checked regular

I guess is why would you lie to a sweet bottom and poz a load inside him?

why would you want to be poz?

[Guest abig14me]

Have you read the Poz guys thoughts  topic? Becoming poz wasn't something I wanted, but I'm glad it happened as it freed me from a lot of self-imposed BS. And being poz in this day and age isn't a death sentence like it was 30 years ago.

You shouldn't make generalities about poz tops. I don't lie to bottoms about being poz. I'm quite up front about it. And whenever a negative guy hits me up, I always make sure he understands that I'm poz. There is the phenomenon of stealth-pozzing, but not all poz tops engage in it.

[captain]

thank you for your thought out reply I just see what I read here and what some men say and I guess you can say I am caught up in that BS and when I was coming out in the late '80's everyone would say stay I a relationship even a bad one well I have not settled down yet again thank you for your reply

[kygayjoshbb]

Good question and good reply.

BUT...... BBers should understand that there's a likelihood their partner could be + and if they truly want to stay -, they should either abstain from sex & needles and use condoms all of the time.  BUT that doesn't excuse a gifter from blatantly passing the gift to one who didn't want it.

Let's face it, not everyone knows & cares about their status.  People do lie about things just to get lucky.  How many people have asked a possible fling if they used drugs and he said no but when they hookup, he's using meth?  Who has asked a guy if he has a STD and the guy says no and you see his genitals that could say otherwise?

 

 

[captain]

You are so right.  Sir I have had a top use condoms on the first few dates and once we learn more about each other the condom came off or I have met a cute man and things just happen but believe it or not I or him asked if I wish a condom

[Lookn4btm]

I dunno, guys.  This is a hugely sensitive issue.  It seems that some folks are being very unrealistic and cavalier about getting and being pozzed.  I'm not trying to sound judgmental here because I only bareback.  I will not wrap it and I will not pull out.  I also will not discriminate against a poz guy if he knows his status and he's managing it.  I'll lay a load (or three) into him just as eagerly as I will a neg guy.  I'm more leery of guys who have no clue about their status and who don't care.  Makes me pretty sure there are other nasties that he's harboring that are going to land me in my doctor's office with my face hanging out.  Anyway, back to the issue at hand.

Maybe it's the younger generation talking but for those of us who were around in the '80s and '90s and who watched a whole generation of beautiful, bright, talented young men waste away into hideous and demented old men before dying ignomious deaths, being poz carries a tremendous amount of baggage.  There were times in the 80s and 90s when we were going to 12 memorial services PER WEEK.  I can't even count the number of times I hugged the partner of someone who just died knowing that I'd be attending his memorial in a matter of months.  Guys, it was horrendous -- a tragedy worse than war.  And it was uglier than homemade sin.  The opportunistic diseases, the social stigma, the alienation and isolation.  God, it was unspeakably horrible.

The wonderful thing that none of us could have ever imagined is a time when HIV could be wiped from the face of the planet.  We are at that point, guys!  We can do this!  We can honor our fallen brothers by eliminating the scourge that so heartlessly eviscerated their young and vital lives.  And you know what's even better?  We can do it and still have as much bareback sex as we want!  Gents, it is nothing short of a miracle!  We have every reason to celebrate with orgies of cum dumping and swapping.

This is why the instant debate bothers me so much.  Having gone through the Dark Years and having seen so many beloved people fall, it just seems disrespectful to them for us to be so cavalier about "chasing" and "gifting" and "converting."  It seems particularly hurtful to the memory of those who are gone because we can do something about it.  We can prevent it.  We can stay healthy and live normal and highly sexual lives sans the complications and implications of HIV.  We can stamp out the Satan that felled so many of our kind. 

It is wonderful that so many folks who are poz have gotten past the stigma, fear, and self-doubt of their infection.  God bless 'em, they deserve to feel freed of the anchors that pulled so many before us under the cold and turbulent waters of a terrible death.  That being said, I cannot help but feel that it is unhealthy and unwise to glorify HIV as something to be sought.  It seems to be a holdover of oppression when being gay meant we were something subhuman that deserved to get sick and die.  Intentional pozzing seems to be an indicator of a lack of self-worth.  There is some deeper pathology there that we should critically examine within ourselves before making one's own body a sacrifice on the altar of the mass murderer that is HIV.

It just seems so senseless when we have PREP and treatments that can stop HIV dead in its tracks.  There is absolutely no reason for us to be fatalistic and think, well, I'm going to get it anyway so I might as well poz myself and be done with it.  I've been rawboning guys for decades and so far I've dodged the bullet -- and make no mistake, it is a bullet.  It is NOT a gift.  It is not a game.  It is not something to be taken lightly.  It is a near 100 percent fatal disease if left untreated.  Still, I refuse to engage in safe sex and have the intense thrill of depositing my swimmer boys deep inside of an eagerly receptive bottom dampened by the prospect of future consequences of a deadly disease.  The wonderful part is that I don't have to worry about it and neither do my partners. We can stay emotionally and physically healthy and happy without worries of recriminations and guilt and the complications of managing an HIV infection.

Several years ago before PREP came on the scene but after we were identifying effective treatments, I had a very hot blond/ginger poz fuckbud.  We went to a BYOB (Bring Your Own Bottom) party as a couple.  There was one guy there who used to be super hot with a really huge unit.  He was clearly ill and he made no secret of the fact that the meds were losing their effectiveness on his strain of the virus.  The guy dutifully wrapped his piece before slipping into the bottoms (wedging it in, might be a better description).  After I'd opened up my bud with my tongue and fatboy, he went over to the ill super big guy, pulled the rubber off his unit and sat on it to the hilt.  When he saw the look of surprise on my face he smirked at me and said, "Membership has its privileges."  It was  a hard point to argue.  At some level he was right because the options were limited.  The top fucked him for a while but he clearly held back from unloading his uniquely toxic seed into my bud despite his begging for a load from that huge hose pipe. 

The point here is not to titillate but to say that there was a time in our not too distant past when taking the "Membership has its privileges" view on bareback sex was a bit more understandable and defensible.  However, there is absolutely no need for that self-destructive attitude nowadays.  We have PREP for negs and treatments for pozs.  If the same scenario happened today and I knew my bud was on meds or PREP, I'd cheer him on encourage the top to let him have it and I might even wedge my not-insubstantial piece in there at the same time and add my DNA to the soup.

I suppose the bottom line here (pun intended) is to encourage us all to think about possibilities and not fatalistic eventualities.  Let's remember our fallen brothers and do what we can to keep ourselves, each other, and our community physically and emotionally healthy.  It's a totally new world out there; let's not drag the baggage of the Dark Ages into our new, enlightened, exciting, and highly sexual world.  If you're neg, do whatever you can to stay that way.  PREP is so incredibly easy, safe, and reliable.  If you're poz, take the high road and manage your health.  Or just refuse to seed a guy who doesn't have enough sense or self-respect to keep himself healthy.  If you give it to him, he's just going to give it to someone else -- willingly or not -- and you're going to perpetuate the disease that has exacted an excruciatingly high toll on our community.

All of the above high-mindedness aside, there's another very compelling -- and arguably less noble -- reason to stay HIV-:  You will have access to more sex partners.  Let's face it, most neg guys WILL NOT have sex with poz guys and if they do, they're less likely to engage in bareback sex or the exchange of body fluids -- which we barebackers shamelessly live for.  Truthfully, being an out--of-the-closet bareback top limits my options even though I am neg.  There are a lot of super hot bottoms -- both poz and neg -- out there who will not hook up with me because I will not wrap it for anyone -- no matter how much they beg me to.  But if I was poz, my options would be even more limited.  Personally, I have chosen the quality of natural, man-to-man, raw sex over higher quantity safer sex -- and I don't regret it one bit.   

I hope this gives you guys who are thinking about pozzing yourselves and those of you who have the ability to poz others something to think about.  It's important to think about the long-term and bigger-picture consequences of becoming poz.  It is truly a life-altering decision that, so far, cannot be undone. 

[Guest abig14me]

4 hours ago, Lookn4btm said:

(snip)

Maybe it's the younger generation talking but for those of us who were around in the '80s and '90s and who watched a whole generation of beautiful, bright, talented young men waste away into hideous and demented old men before dying ignomious deaths, being poz carries a tremendous amount of baggage.  There were times in the 80s and 90s when we were going to 12 memorial services PER WEEK.  I can't even count the number of times I hugged the partner of someone who just died knowing that I'd be attending his memorial in a matter of months.  Guys, it was horrendous -- a tragedy worse than war.  And it was uglier than homemade sin.  The opportunistic diseases, the social stigma, the alienation and isolation.  God, it was unspeakably horrible.

(snip)

This is why the instant debate bothers me so much.  Having gone through the Dark Years and having seen so many beloved people fall, it just seems disrespectful to them for us to be so cavalier about "chasing" and "gifting" and "converting."  It seems particularly hurtful to the memory of those who are gone because we can do something about it.  We can prevent it.  We can stay healthy and live normal and highly sexual lives sans the complications and implications of HIV.  We can stamp out the Satan that felled so many of our kind. 

It is wonderful that so many folks who are poz have gotten past the stigma, fear, and self-doubt of their infection.  God bless 'em, they deserve to feel freed of the anchors that pulled so many before us under the cold and turbulent waters of a terrible death.  That being said, I cannot help but feel that it is unhealthy and unwise to glorify HIV as something to be sought.  It seems to be a holdover of oppression when being gay meant we were something subhuman that deserved to get sick and die.  Intentional pozzing seems to be an indicator of a lack of self-worth.  There is some deeper pathology there that we should critically examine within ourselves before making one's own body a sacrifice on the altar of the mass murderer that is HIV.

(snip)

I don't see how to quote in context here, so I'll try it this way. And I'll preface my comments with, "I know you weren't talking to me, but..."

I'm 53, so I was around in the 80s and 90s when being HIV+ was a death sentence. (I originally typed poz, but in thinking about it, I think that HIV+ guys then are different from poz guys now. HIV+ was more of a death sentence and poz is more of a condition/lifestyle. And, yes, I believe that some guys who were HIV+ back then and managed to still be here today are now poz.) I don't glorify anything about being poz nor do I proselytize HIV as something to be sought. For me personally (and I wasn't a chaser, as already stated), being poz has allowed me to get in touch with aspects of myself that I wouldn't have if I'd still been negative.

For the first 5-10 years after I became poz, I refused to play with anyone who was negative. Because I wasn't going to "gift" anyone as I had been "gifted." I'm undetectable, and according to a recent report I was told about, in that regard I'm "shooting blanks" now. But even before that report I decided that if a consenting adult who is negative wants to sleep with me for me to "gift" him, then that's his choice to make. And if I find him fuckable, then I shouldn't deny either of us the opportunity to have sex with each other. If HIV were still a death sentence, I would probably feel differently.

The only person who can live a given person's life is that person. Others may not like the choices that a given person makes, but they can't live that person's life for them - they can only live their OWN life. It took me a long time to learn that lesson.

[Lookn4btm]

Thank you for your insights and clarity.  No, I was not speaking to anybody in particular.  I tried to keep my thoughts and comments as non-personal as possible.  Thank you for not taking anything I said personally.  It was not intended as such. 

Very interesting, the distinction between being HIV+ and being POZ.  It's a glorious thing to be able to make that distinction now.  I'm interested to learn more about the insights that you gained about yourself. I have heard other HIV+/POZ folks over the years say the same thing.  It might not be possible for me to understand but I would appreciate the opportunity to try.  A comment I heard the most (and this was at a time when HIV was pretty much a death sentence) was that their HIV infection made them appreciate life more.  Perhaps sharing some of your experiences with getting in touch with aspects of yourself could help us all learn how to turn something like HIV into a POZ experience?

I don't disagree with your point about your and your partner's right to have sex with one another if you are sero-discordant.  Absolutely, those are decisions that you two can make about your own lives, your own bodies, and your own health.  God knows, I've made that decision hundreds -- if not thousands -- of times over the years.  The only qualification that I would put on that -- and perhaps it is not a point that I made clear earlier -- is this:  Say I am in your shoes as an HIV+/POZ person and someone wants me to "gift" him.  If I choose to fuck him and if he sero-converts, I have lost control of the "gift" which almost certainly will end up sero-converting other folks down the line -- some of whom might not have wanted such a fate.  

Here's what I mean:  The fellow I "gift" might be totally responsible and keep it only to those who want it or he might, like you, manage the infection responsibly such that he is no longer a vector.  On the other hand, he might not.  Say that fellow infects five other guys as willing recipients.  And they each infect five other guys and so forth.  The numbers grow exponentially.  Sooner or later (and probably both sooner and later), one or more of those guys is going to give it -- intentionally or not -- to someone who didn't want it.  The upshot is that the decision I made will have negative consequences for an unknowable subset of the population.   Essentially, I have infected a group of guys with my strain of the virus. I'm not entirely sure that I have the right to make the life-altering decision to give guys I don't even know my virus.  I would see that as being unforgivably selfish for me to do such a thing.

The only other thing that you state above regarding the distinction between being HIV+ and being POZ that I want us to be totally clear about is that, at it's root, we are still talking about an infection of a deadly virus that, no matter how individuals choose to handle it, is going to alter and complicate their lives dramatically.  And it is going to impact other people and the community as a whole.  Think about it this way:  Every single decision that we make as individuals has a ripple effect.  It's not just a drop in our own teacup, rather it's a drop in a pond or a lake or an ocean that is shared by everyone.  If you believe in Karma, then a positive drop in the ocean will have positive ripples that will eventually become positive waves.  Likewise, a negative drop...well, you get the point, I'm sure.  From metaphysical and societal perspectives, intentional pozzing does not seem to be a beneficial drop in the ocean because somebody is going to end up washed up dead on a shoreline somewhere because someone else made a conscious decision to transmit the virus.

To try to bring this back to the original question of the original poster which was why would one want to be poz:  I hear your answer to be something along the lines of being poz is turning something bad into something good or making the most of a bad turn of cards or getting support from people with the same challenge.  In my opinion, this is a noble, useful, and helpful way of looking at life and the cards one is dealt.  But the core of the matter is that we are talking about infection by a dangerous and -- if left untreated -- almost certainly deadly virus.  It's a good thing to be poz as in positive about our lot in life but it is NOT good to confuse or equate this with being HIV-positive which it appears some pozzing advocates/practitioners are doing. 

I'd appreciate your further thoughts and those of some pozzing advocates.  This is an important dialog for us to have.

[ChoirBoy]

It's interesting, I read all these comments, and I really don't remember life with out being POZ.  I happen to be a POZ bottom, but in my case sex was not how I became infected.  I was only 17 when I was infected by a blood transfusion back in 1984 at Carswell AFB.  Yes, you read that right, 'The Government' gave it to me.  I post my status on all dating sites I use, and I try and tell everyone my status before we have sex, but I just don't know if I have ever passed the virus to another man.  All I know is I have to stay in treatment, and keep my virus suppressed, so I don't infect any one.  Every one has to accept responsibility for their own actions. My biggest mistake was I did not call my father for help when my car would not start, and I was stranded in Arlington TX.  I tried to walk 20 miles to a bus stop in Dallas, but got hit by a car.  The sad thing is, there is nothing fun about getting hit by a car.  Most people were trying to have fun when they became infected.

[Guest abig14me]

As for insights, I have always liked to rim, but in my head thought that was something that was dirty that I had to keep secret and couldn't allow myself to indulge in lest my sexual partners think I was some kind of weirdo. After I came to terms with being poz, I realized there was no reason for me NOT to indulge in the things I liked as long as they didn't hurt anyone else. And once I allowed myself to indulge in rimming I found out that not only did other guys like it, I'm really good at it. My fascination with cumholes has only occurred in the last few years, but I have no problem announcing publicly that I like to eat cum out of an ass, especially if it's someone else's cum.

And now that I'm poz, sexual practices that I once considered taboo (S&M, CBT, B&D and the rest of the abbreviations) I don't consider taboo any longer. I may not be interested in them per se, but I don't consider them bad/weird/out there/etc. As I've said, as long as it's happening between two consenting adults, more power to them. And now that I'm getting in touch with my inner pig, I'm even curious about trying some of them out.

As for the difference between HIV+ and poz, in the early days of the AIDS epidemic, people with HIV were dying. Today people with HIV are living. And that's where the difference is. That's why I consider poz a lifestyle. But that's not to say that everyone who has HIV these days is poz. There are definitely HIV+ people in 2017 who are dying in various ways.

The way I feel about gifts (of any kind) in general is that once I've given the gift, I have no say in how the recipient of that gift uses (or misuses) it. If I gift someone with cash and they blow it on something stupid instead of buying something they need, paying a bill or saving it, that's on them, not on me. If I weren't shooting blanks, as it were, I might feel differently about the "gift" of HIV.

In general I agree about karma and intentional pozzing of the stealth kind. But if I sleep with a negative guy who knows I'm poz and (for the sake of argument) I manage to pass my strain onto him, I don't see how I've done anything wrong for which I'll suffer karmic repercussions. The same goes for people who don't know they're HIV+ and manage to infect others. The law may disagree with me, but I don't think those people can be held accountable for doing something they weren't aware they were doing. I feel differently about people who think they're HIV+ but don't have an official diagnosis and continue to act as if they aren't.

I don't mean to sound flippant but life itself is a virus. From the moment each of us is born, we're on a trajectory to death. For some it happens quickly, and for others it can take a hundred or more years. None of us knows how long we have to live or under what circumstances we'll die. Yes, HIV is a virus that can cause death. For all any of us knows, someone who isn't taking meds to control their virus may undergo some mutation caused by the unchecked virus that ends up being beneficial to mankind. Conversely, the drugs people take to control their HIV may have a similar long-term effect, causing some mutation that is beneficial. What if having HIV ended up making one immune to all other diseases, including HIV? What if having HIV caused the body to be able to cure itself of all ailments, including failing organs? In the scope of man's existence on the planet, HIV hasn't been around long enough for us to know whether it's long-term effect on man is beneficial or detrimental. If I remember correctly, descendants of some peoples who survived the Black Death are immune to HIV. It took 600 or so years for a horrible event to have positive consequences. Who's to say that HIV won't have a similar positive consequence in mankind's future?

[Tossvey]

For me, such behavior is an absolute madness.

You can take PREP and You can fuck bareback as much as You want whitout the risk of getting HIV and then AIDS, why anyone would want to became infected?!?!? Why choose to became ill when You can stay healthy?!?!?!